Verse 43 Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise
(Shmeron met emou esh en twi paradeiswi). However crude may have been the robber's Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him.
I'm sorry about repeating some of these debate points. I really never intended that. I had what seemed a sheet obscuring much of what I wrote. ALSO I really intended to edit the blog. Frank
I'm sorry about repeating some of these debate points. I really never intended that. I had what seemed a sheet obscuring much of what I wrote. ALSO I really intended to edit the blog. Frank
Christ the Son of God promises the thief immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise
"Paradise" is a Persian word and is used here involving the very bliss of heaven itself. This Persian word was used
for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). (A greek mercenary General in "Up Country") The word
occurs in two other passages in the N.T. in both of which the reference is plainly to paradise.
for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). (A greek mercenary General in "Up Country") The word
occurs in two other passages in the N.T. in both of which the reference is plainly to paradise.
"in Paradise"
WHAT DOES THE WORD "PARADISE" MEAN?
WHAT DOES THE WORD "PARADISE" MEAN?
This word is used in a number of places.
Verse 43 Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise
(Shmeron met emou esh en twi paradeiswi). However crude may have been the robber's Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him.
So Christ the Son of God promises the thief immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise
"in Paradise"
WHAT DOES THE WORD "PARADISE" MEAN?
"Paradise" is a Persian word and is used here involving the very bliss of heaven itself. This Persian word was
used for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). (A greek mercenary General in "Up Country")
The word occurs in two other passages in the N.T. in both of which the reference is plainly to paradise.
This word is used in a number of places.
(2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7 both use it.),
2 Corinthians 12:2-4;
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don`t know, or whether out of the body, I don`t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven.
I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I don`t know; God knows),
how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The Lone Roo has left a new comment on our post
The Lone Roo's questioning statement: "Frank, my question would be that
in light of John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not
yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them,
‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”,
WHAT HAPPENED TO MARY?
A.T.ROBINSON'S COMMENTARY:
Verse 16 With the greeting to Mary, A.T. Robinson's exegesis points out what
happened
(Mariam). Aramaic form in Aleph B W, though Maria in 19:25. Clearly the old
familiar tone of Jesus was in the pronunciation of her name. Rabboni (Rabbounei)
. Aramaic again for Didaskale (Teacher), "my Teacher." In N.T. only here and Mark
10:51 though practically the same as Rabbi. See 11:28 for "the Teacher" (Rabbi).
These two simple words tell the great fact that Christ is risen and Mary has seen
him. One says little in really great moments.
(While I believe that we as believers in Christ should come to God's warm
embrace, as Romans 8:16-19 encourages us, "OUR ABBA FATHER," that God is still God. Mary is
attempting to assume certain "clinging to" relationships no longer there.
John, for example, was the Apostle who would commonly lay his head on
Jesus' chest--notice the difference in Revelations 1:17.
(SEE THE EXEGESIS OF JOHN 2:17)
17 Jesus said to her, "Don`t touch me, for I haven`t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. `"
Verse 17 Touch me not
(mh mou aptou). Present middle imperative in prohibition with genitive case,
(Remember John was known as the one always laying his head on Jesus' chest--
notice the difference in John's reaction in his later encounter with
Jesus after Jesus had ascended)Rev. 1:12-17.
Perfect active indicative. Jesus is here at all only because he has not
yet gone home. He had said (Matthew 16:7) that it was good for them that he
should go to the Father when the Holy Spirit will come through whom they will
have fellowship with the Father and Christ.
My God (qeou mou). Jesus had said
"My God" on the Cross (Mark 15:34). Note it also in Revelation 3:2. So Paul in
Romans 15:6, etc., has "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
" how could he be telling the thief that he would be in paradise when he didn't
ascend for 3 more days? "
JESUS WAS RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD AFTER THREE DAYS
AND THREE NIGHTS IN HADES
THE ASCENTION WASN'T THREE DAYS--
JESUS WOULD ASCEND FROM EARTH TO HEAVEN AFTER 40 DAYS
to the right hand of GOD. Acts 1:3
I'll quote Peter more fully later but Peter answers that question:
ACTS 2
27Because you will not leave my soul in Hades, Neither will you allow your
oti ouk egkataleiyeiV thn yuchn mou eiV adhn oude dwseiV
oti ouk egkataleiyeiV thn yuchn mou eiV adhn oude dwseiV ton osion sou idein diafqoran
"The SOUL" of Jesus ("my Holy One") was "in Hades"
Hades never means "grave", but it is a Greek
word meaning the same as the Hebrew "Sheol"
"PARADISE-ABRAHAM'S BOSUM"WAS PART OF HADES
The CRUCIFIED BODY of Jesus was in Joseph's tomb and
would have suffered decay except for His resurrection.
This same unascended crucified body
is what Mary encountered.
YOUR QUESTION RAISES PROBLEMS ONLY BECAUSE OF YOUR
MISTAKEN BELIEF THAT JESUS HAS NO SOUL
OR THE THIEF HAS NO SOUL.
We've already shared that Jesus' soul suffered in the Isaiah 53 passage. THE
SAME ORIGINAL WORD FOR SOUL IS USED IN GEN.2:7, ISA. 53:11-12,
IT WAS JESUS' SOUL THAT SUFFERED FROM GOD
(Isa. 53:11-12)
AS A VICARIOSUS SACRIFICE IN ISAIAH 53:10-11 "AS THE RESULT
OF ANGUISH OF HIS (JESUS CHRIST'S) SOUL,
HE (GOD THE FATHER) WILL SEE IT AND BE
SATISFIED...WILL JUSTIFY THE MANY."
JESUS TEACHING ABOUT THE SOULS OF TWO MEN
It's recorded in the Bible, Jesus taught this about an event involving
the souls of two men.
LUKE 16:19-28
A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores,
and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man`s table. Yes, even the dogs came
It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the
angels to Abraham`s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
HADES--ABRAHAM'S BOSOM--PARADISE (Eph. 4:8-12, Rev. 1:18, 2 Cor. 12:1-4)
In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham
far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
Obviously BOTH WERE IN HADES and these experiences must
involve the non-physical part (souls) of these two men
He cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my
tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.`
But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received
your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now
here he is comforted and you are in anguish.
(These dead men's souls are awake, have feelings--emotions)
Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed,
(Jewish Historian, Josephus, has a book about Hades
Check what a Jewish Josephus says about Shoel or Hades)
He said, `I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my
father`s house;
for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.`
This would be good advise to those who refuse
But Abraham said to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let
them listen to them.`
He said, `No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead,
they will repent.`
He said to him, `If they don`t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither
will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.`"
Jewish Historian, Josephus, not a Christian, but a
contempory to the beginning of the Christian Church,
who was from a Jewish priest's family. He had been
a member of all three Jewish sects. Often had
rabbis came to him for advise. He was a general in
the first Jewish--Roman War. He wrote a huge many
--volumes work on Jewish history, and in one book,
"DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES"
pp. 637, he wrote:
"Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the
righteous and the unrighteous are detained....the
just shall obtain incorruptable and never fading
kingdom. These are indeed confined in Hades, but
not in the same place wherein the unjust are
confined....
For a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; in as much that a
just man that hath compassion upon the wicked cannot be admitted,
nor can one that is unjust , if he were bold enough to
attempt it, passover it....
5. This is the discourse concerning Hades wherein
the souls of all men confined until a proper season
which God hath determined...."
The souls of all men are confined until when?
THAT'S TOO IS OBVIOUS!
Incidently, because one believes in the immortal soul of man doesn't
DOES NOT mean one is a disciple of Plato. David
speaks of his soul in sheol Psa. 16:10, which
Peter renders: "His soul in HADES."
I'll write on the Plato problem you keep worrying about.
THIS QUESTION: " how could he(JESUS) be telling the thief that he
would be in paradise when he didn't ascend for 3 more days? "
This should be self-explanatory by this time.
That's not hard to understand unless as you say the THIEF HAS
NO SOUL.
WITH NO SOUL.
OBVIOUSLY with no soul there could be no David's soul left in
Hades so making David's and Peter's arguement false.
The thief would be in an even worst situation--he has been in
effect non-existent, for over 2000 years, and Jesus' word
"today" is meaningless or must be a teaser for any
immediate paradise. Did Jesus imply a warning to unbelievers when
He quoted the rich man saying:
I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
He said, `No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead,
they will repent.`
But Abraham said to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let
them listen to them.
`
2 Corinthians 12:2-4;
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don`t know, or whether out of the body, I don`t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven.
| ||
I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I don`t know; God knows),
| ||
how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
|
The Lone Roo has left a new comment on our post
The Lone Roo's questioning statement: "Frank, my question would be that
in light of John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not
yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them,
‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”,
WHAT HAPPENED TO MARY?
A.T.ROBINSON'S COMMENTARY:
Verse 16 With the greeting to Mary, A.T. Robinson's exegesis points out what
happened
(Mariam). Aramaic form in Aleph B W, though Maria in 19:25. Clearly the old
familiar tone of Jesus was in the pronunciation of her name. Rabboni (Rabbounei)
. Aramaic again for Didaskale (Teacher), "my Teacher." In N.T. only here and Mark
10:51 though practically the same as Rabbi. See 11:28 for "the Teacher" (Rabbi).
These two simple words tell the great fact that Christ is risen and Mary has seen
him. One says little in really great moments.
(While I believe that we as believers in Christ should come to God's warm
embrace, as Romans 8:16-19 encourages us, "OUR ABBA FATHER," that God is still God. Mary is
attempting to assume certain "clinging to" relationships no longer there.
John, for example, was the Apostle who would commonly lay his head on
Jesus' chest--notice the difference in Revelations 1:17.
(SEE THE EXEGESIS OF JOHN 2:17)
17 Jesus said to her, "Don`t touch me, for I haven`t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. `"
Verse 17 Touch me not
(mh mou aptou). Present middle imperative in prohibition with genitive case,
meaning "cease clinging to me" rather than "Do not touch me." Jesus
allowed the women to take hold of his feet (ekrathsan) and worship
(prosekunhsan) as we read in Matthew 28:9.
The prohibition here reminds Mary that the previous personal fellowship by
sight, sound, and touch no longer exists and that the final state of glory was not
yet begun.
Jesus checks Mary's impulsive eagerness. For I am not yet ascended (oupw gar
anabebhka).
(Remember John was known as the one always laying his head on Jesus' chest--
notice the difference in John's reaction in his later encounter with
Jesus after Jesus had ascended)Rev. 1:12-17.
Perfect active indicative. Jesus is here at all only because he has not
yet gone home. He had said (Matthew 16:7) that it was good for them that he
should go to the Father when the Holy Spirit will come through whom they will
have fellowship with the Father and Christ.
My God (qeou mou). Jesus had said
"My God" on the Cross (Mark 15:34). Note it also in Revelation 3:2. So Paul in
Romans 15:6, etc., has "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
|
" how could he be telling the thief that he would be in paradise when he didn't
ascend for 3 more days? "
ascend for 3 more days? "
JESUS WAS RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD AFTER THREE DAYS
AND THREE NIGHTS IN HADES
THE ASCENTION WASN'T THREE DAYS--
JESUS WOULD ASCEND FROM EARTH TO HEAVEN AFTER 40 DAYS
to the right hand of GOD. Acts 1:3
I'll quote Peter more fully later but Peter answers that question:
ACTS 2
27Because you will not leave my soul in Hades, Neither will you allow your
Holy One to see decay.
| |||
| oti ouk egkataleiyeiV thn yuchn mou eiV adhn oude dwseiV ton osion sou idein diafqoran |
"The SOUL" of Jesus ("my Holy One") was "in Hades"
Hades never means "grave", but it is a Greek
word meaning the same as the Hebrew "Sheol"
"PARADISE-ABRAHAM'S BOSUM"WAS PART OF HADES
Hades never means "grave", but it is a Greek
word meaning the same as the Hebrew "Sheol"
"PARADISE-ABRAHAM'S BOSUM"WAS PART OF HADES
The CRUCIFIED BODY of Jesus was in Joseph's tomb and
would have suffered decay except for His resurrection.
This same unascended crucified body
is what Mary encountered.
is what Mary encountered.
YOUR QUESTION RAISES PROBLEMS ONLY BECAUSE OF YOUR
MISTAKEN BELIEF THAT JESUS HAS NO SOUL
OR THE THIEF HAS NO SOUL.
OR THE THIEF HAS NO SOUL.
We've already shared that Jesus' soul suffered in the Isaiah 53 passage. THE
SAME ORIGINAL WORD FOR SOUL IS USED IN GEN.2:7, ISA. 53:11-12,
IT WAS JESUS' SOUL THAT SUFFERED FROM GOD
(Isa. 53:11-12)
AS A VICARIOSUS SACRIFICE IN ISAIAH 53:10-11 "AS THE RESULT
OF ANGUISH OF HIS (JESUS CHRIST'S) SOUL,
HE (GOD THE FATHER) WILL SEE IT AND BE
SATISFIED...WILL JUSTIFY THE MANY."
SAME ORIGINAL WORD FOR SOUL IS USED IN GEN.2:7, ISA. 53:11-12,
IT WAS JESUS' SOUL THAT SUFFERED FROM GOD
(Isa. 53:11-12)
AS A VICARIOSUS SACRIFICE IN ISAIAH 53:10-11 "AS THE RESULT
OF ANGUISH OF HIS (JESUS CHRIST'S) SOUL,
HE (GOD THE FATHER) WILL SEE IT AND BE
SATISFIED...WILL JUSTIFY THE MANY."
JESUS TEACHING ABOUT THE SOULS OF TWO MEN
It's recorded in the Bible, Jesus taught this about an event involving
the souls of two men.
LUKE 16:19-28
| |
A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores,
| |
and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man`s table. Yes, even the dogs came
and licked his sores.
| |
It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the
angels to Abraham`s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
HADES--ABRAHAM'S BOSOM--PARADISE (Eph. 4:8-12, Rev. 1:18, 2 Cor. 12:1-4)
| |
In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham
far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.
Obviously BOTH WERE IN HADES and these experiences must
involve the non-physical part (souls) of these two men
| |
He cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send
Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my
tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.`
| |
But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received
your good things, and Lazarus, in like manner, bad things. But now
here he is comforted and you are in anguish.
(These dead men's souls are awake, have feelings--emotions)
| |
Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed,
that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that none
may cross over from there to us.`
(Jewish Historian, Josephus, has a book about Hades Check what a Jewish Josephus says about Shoel or Hades) | |
He said, `I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my
father`s house;
| |
for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.`
This would be good advise to those who refuse | |
But Abraham said to him, `They have Moses and the prophets. Let
them listen to them.`
| |
He said, `No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead,
they will repent.`
| |
He said to him, `If they don`t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither
will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.`"
|
Jewish Historian, Josephus, not a Christian, but a
contempory to the beginning of the Christian Church,
who was from a Jewish priest's family. He had been
a member of all three Jewish sects. Often had
rabbis came to him for advise. He was a general in
the first Jewish--Roman War. He wrote a huge many
--volumes work on Jewish history, and in one book,
the first Jewish--Roman War. He wrote a huge many
--volumes work on Jewish history, and in one book,
"DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES"
pp. 637, he wrote:
pp. 637, he wrote:
"Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the
righteous and the unrighteous are detained....the
just shall obtain incorruptable and never fading
kingdom. These are indeed confined in Hades, but
not in the same place wherein the unjust are
confined....
righteous and the unrighteous are detained....the
just shall obtain incorruptable and never fading
kingdom. These are indeed confined in Hades, but
not in the same place wherein the unjust are
confined....
For a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; in as much that a
just man that hath compassion upon the wicked cannot be admitted,
nor can one that is unjust , if he were bold enough to
attempt it, passover it....
nor can one that is unjust , if he were bold enough to
attempt it, passover it....
5. This is the discourse concerning Hades wherein
the souls of all men confined until a proper season
which God hath determined...."
the souls of all men confined until a proper season
which God hath determined...."
The souls of all men are confined until when?
THAT'S TOO IS OBVIOUS!
Incidently, because one believes in the immortal soul of man doesn't
DOES NOT mean one is a disciple of Plato. David
speaks of his soul in sheol Psa. 16:10, which
Peter renders: "His soul in HADES."
I'll write on the Plato problem you keep worrying about.
THIS QUESTION: " how could he(JESUS) be telling the thief that he
would be in paradise when he didn't ascend for 3 more days? "
That's not hard to understand unless as you say the THIEF HAS
NO SOUL.
NO SOUL.
WITH NO SOUL.
OBVIOUSLY with no soul there could be no David's soul left in
Hades so making David's and Peter's arguement false.
The thief would be in an even worst situation--he has been in
effect non-existent, for over 2000 years, and Jesus' word
"today" is meaningless or must be a teaser for any
immediate paradise. Did Jesus imply a warning to unbelievers when
He quoted the rich man saying:
Hades so making David's and Peter's arguement false.
The thief would be in an even worst situation--he has been in
effect non-existent, for over 2000 years, and Jesus' word
"today" is meaningless or must be a teaser for any
immediate paradise. Did Jesus imply a warning to unbelievers when
He quoted the rich man saying:
I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
He said, `No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead,
they will repent.`
`
|
He said to him, `If they don`t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither
will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.`"
This is Jesus teaching about "Souls in Abraham's Bosum or hades" And Jesus
go immediately to Hades after dying on the with the repent thief, and as Lazarus
had immediately relief so would the thief "today" not some event still coming.
SO WHEN JESUS DIED HE DIDN'T ASCEND --BUT HE DESCENDED.
THIS IS WHERE THOSE THREE DAYS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR--
THAT YOU WERE SO PUZZELED ABOUT--
Alright, WHAT ABOUT THOSE THREE DAYS?
|
This is Jesus teaching about "Souls in Abraham's Bosum or hades" And Jesus
go immediately to Hades after dying on the with the repent thief, and as Lazarus
had immediately relief so would the thief "today" not some event still coming.
go immediately to Hades after dying on the with the repent thief, and as Lazarus
had immediately relief so would the thief "today" not some event still coming.
SO WHEN JESUS DIED HE DIDN'T ASCEND --BUT HE DESCENDED.
THIS IS WHERE THOSE THREE DAYS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR--
THAT YOU WERE SO PUZZELED ABOUT--
Alright, WHAT ABOUT THOSE THREE DAYS?
WHERE DID JESUS GO FOR THOSE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS?
THE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS BETWEEN JESUS' DEATH AND JESUS RESURRECTION?
Jesus teaches about this three days and three night in a sign--He was prompted to give a sign in Acts 12:38-41.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jonah was cognoscent-awake in the fish as Christ was in hades--"in the heart of the earth."
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will
The Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jonah was cognoscent-awake in the fish as Christ was in hades--"in the heart
of the earth."
Maybe the business of the fish is confusing to some,
but if you'll read it--it plainly says "AS JONAH WAS SO JESUS WAS...."
WHERE? IN A FISH? NO! "IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH!"
THAT'S WHERE Sheol and Hades exist. There's plenty of scripture to
prove that, and I'll do that in a later blog.
The word "AS" is a comparison word. Jesus is not comparing the place,
but that as JONAH WAS ALIVE--AWAKE IN THE FISH--SEEING--
SENSING, SPEAKING, SO WOULD JESUS BE, ALIVE, AWAKE
IN HADES --SEEING, SENSING
NOW CHECK OUT MY POST ON PLATO, HADES.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will
The Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jonah was cognoscent-awake in the fish as Christ was in hades--"in the heart
of the earth."
NOW CHECK OUT MY POST ON PLATO, HADES.
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